Mary Louise Kelly of NPR is talking to former Trump’s Ambassador in Trump, John Bolton, about the upcoming president’s summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin.
Mary Louise Kelly, host:
Two minutes – this is the time when President Trump says he will take it to see if Russian President Vladimir Putin is serious about finding a way to end his war with Ukraine. Details are still rare, but Putin and Trump are scheduled to meet on Friday in Alaska. Ukrainian President Folodimir Zelinsky was not invited. I want to bring someone in the room the last time Trump sat with Putin. That was Helsinki in 2018. John Bolton was working at that time as President of President Trump’s national security. Ambassador Bolton, is great to talk to you again.
John Bolton: Well, thank you for hosting me.
Kelly: So what are the lessons that I took from that summit in Helsinki that Trump may consider this time?
Bolton: Well, this time, Trump is the most central actor, I think. It is seen as a possible way to obtain a solution in the war in Ukraine that can lead to the Nobel Peace Prize. But it is a very useful meeting for Putin as well. I think he realizes that he might have pushed Trump on purpose or unintentionally in a large extent not to agree to the ceasefire over the past six months, and he will try to return it. It is clear that he presented some elements of the plan, at least, to Steve Witkev, who brought them back from Moscow.
Kelly: The envoy who was meeting with President Putin in Moscow. I continue.
Bolton: So we are likely to see a more extensive version of that plan, and Trump will decide whether this is something he loves and whether he will present it to Zelenskyy.
Kelly: I collect that you think Trump has already made a mistake by holding this summit on American soil. I was curious why? Because this seems to give Trump something of the home court feature.
Bolton: Well, I think he is giving an international pariah, a leader of a rogue state – who invaded Ukraine without targeting and was excluded from these types of diplomatic meetings for years until now, and it gives him a platform and an opportunity that Trump may not realize Putin to try to work in his training in KGB here. If Putin convinces Trump that he wants a legitimate peace but offers an unacceptable plan for Zelinski, by obtaining the first engine feature, which is given by this summit Putin, it may put Zelinsky and Ukraine in an unpredictable position.
Kelly: What is the size of the deal that will not be there? Can you end the war that was fought in Ukraine without Ukraine on the table?
Bolton: Look, I think earlier this year, we saw Trump and Putin talking without consulting Zelinski, and Putin made a lot of progress there. Remember what Putin’s goal here is not to reach the peace agreement. He tries to re -establish the Russian Empire. And if he can support Trump away from providing US military assistance to Ukraine, including monetary military intelligence, it will be a great victory from his point of view.
Kelly: To the extent that President Trump says he will rise, and I quote, “perhaps in the first two definitions” they know whether a peace agreement can be reached, and that he will be able to read Putin quickly, what do you think?
Bolton: Certainly. Well, this is the way Trump does things. No – he will not read a wide -scale briefing papers for this summit – which, by the way, may be the fastest summit in modern history, and certainly I can remember it – nine days after the idea appeared at the Witkoff meeting.
Kelly: One week when we all learned about that, when …
Bolton: From …
Kelly: … I announced that.
Bolton: … I announce it.
Kelly: Yes.
Bolton: So I think this believes that Trump can read the other side. It sees international relations as personal relations between the heads of state. He did the same with Kim Jong Un the first time he met him in Singapore in the first period and later went out and said that the two had fell in love.
Kelly: So it seems quite clear how winning for Trump. He believes in a kind of agreement. He gets to get away and says he was a great meeting, and I ended the war, and allow me, as you know, to claim the Nobel Peace Prize. What are the risks of Trump at this summit?
Bolton: Well, I think the risks are actually very small. If he thinks that he had happened, with his own amendments – I think one thing will try Putin to do is get to participate from Trump – if Trump submits a proposal or change, Putin will make everything he can agree to. Trump loved to get out of this meeting, believing that his plan was. This will be the perfect result.
But the danger is that if Putin says he is not interested, he can withdraw from diplomatic negotiations. He can say you are chicken on your home. As I mentioned, he can cut US military assistance to Ukraine. On Monday, Trump was again criticizing Shilinski for the continuation of the war, as you know, for meaningless reasons such as preserving Ukrainian freedom and independence.
Kelly: Although there is a challenge to Trump here because he seems to want a deal more than Putin?
Bolton: Well, I think you cannot get the Nobel Peace Prize unless you get the deal. But from Trump’s point of view, if he thinks that – if Putin convinces him that he is honest, whether or not, then Trump takes the deal to Zelinski who rejects it, he can say, I have done everything. Once again, on Monday, he referred to the war as the Biden war and that he had not even committed to participate in a meeting between Zelinski and Putin, which he repeated indefinitely during the 2024 campaign that he would do – he would have obtained two of them in a room and resolved it in 24 hours. He has now retracted.
Kelly: Can you tell from abroad now, but can you know who Trump listens to this? Who advises him what you should enter the strategy?
Bolton: Well, I assume that anyone in the upper ranks in the national security community should be. But I am not aware that they are dragging NSC meetings about this or that Trump is really listening to anyone other than Steve Witkev, who apparently regained the wrong message, from what Putin intended at his meeting last Wednesday.
Kelly: How – he had zero diplomatic experience until this year.
Bolton: But he is a friend of Trump.
Kelly: This game from Vladimir Putin’s view. They are not inside Vladimir Putin’s head, what are the risks to him?
Bolton: I think his main dangers are that Trump leaves the meeting undoubtedly opposes what Putin came with. If Putin is able to persuade him that he is honest, that he wanted peace, and that his plan is reasonable, I think he brought Trump to his side again. The two ancient friends – as Trump believed that they go to this second period – have reached an agreement that seems reasonable, and now Europeans, especially Ukraine, should accept it.
Kelly: This is former national security adviser John Bolton. John Bolton Thank you.
Bolton: Thank you for hosting me.
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